Bot discussion

Discuss strategy in the command tent, exhibit your pictures in the trophy case, inscribe your conquers in the victory monument, have a chat, ... anything that's not a raid goes here.
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Llie
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Re: Bot discussion

Post by Llie » Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:52 am

Both sides of the argument are fair and valid. We want our community (end-game froob raiders) to be more fair and cordial than any of the others (as we can clearly see from the bickering on the official forums over their raid bots. Thus we decided that we would flat roll everything. At the same time we would like as many people who came to a raid as possible walk away from the raid with something so that as many people as possible who came to a raid goes away happy/content/fulfilled which will encourage participation in subsequent raids.

We had always stated the principle of "need before greed". If you're going to actually wear something, then you should sign up for it. If you're planning to put it in social, then you should sit out unless nobody who needs it signs up.

If you want multiple items, I think the principle should not be that you can only sign up to roll for 1 item, but you should be discouraged from winning more than 1 item per kill unless nobody wants one of the items. This logic would be harder to code up in a bot, but not impossible.

The bot doesn't actually prevent you from signing up for a second item does it? Or does it simply list all the loot and only let you sign up for one item, and then it flat rolls all the items across everyone who signs up?

If the bot is set up where you feed it a bunch of items, and everyone signs up for a chance to win it, I think the raid leader should use good judgement/wisdom/the whining of raiders to help decide whether he or she should split up the loot into groups where highly desired/rare items are grouped together for a flat roll, and everything else is grouped together for another flat roll.

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Re: Bot discussion

Post by Matammyr » Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:26 am

I say leave it up to RL discretion (I once won a Notum Miner's Hard Hat in a tlfiveplus raid without ever even rolling on it because I was the only enfo or advy in the raid, and whoever was leading just said to loot it. I'm not even 1he. We've got a lot of flexibility in this.), but if we want to take a look at the official rules, how about not counting one-person rolls against your limit?

So if you're the only person in the roll, it doesn't count as your only roll. You can only win one item on any contested roll, but as many as you want that you're the only person in.

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Re: Bot discussion

Post by tgjensen » Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:41 am

I totally agree with leaving it up to the raid leader's discretion. And I certainly don't think that an item that would otherwise simply rot, like in your case, should count for anything.
My only real contention is that my own discretion would be to allow for multiple wins, with the gentlemanly agreement that need goes before greed, and to maybe give it a rest if you're being exceptionally lucky on that day and winning several items. As such I would like it if it was possible to sign up and roll for several items from the same mob at once, which I don't think can be done right now.
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Re: Bot discussion

Post by EDTA » Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:05 pm

tgjensen wrote:I totally agree with leaving it up to the raid leader's discretion. And I certainly don't think that an item that would otherwise simply rot, like in your case, should count for anything.
My only real contention is that my own discretion would be to allow for multiple wins, with the gentlemanly agreement that need goes before greed, and to maybe give it a rest if you're being exceptionally lucky on that day and winning several items. As such I would like it if it was possible to sign up and roll for several items from the same mob at once, which I don't think can be done right now.
Hmm, if it is about the items of 1 kill that are all rolled at once the argument of "giving it some rest when exceptionally lucky" or "holding back because you don't know if some rare drop will drop on the next kill" don't really go up :p.

But I agree that if the raidleader wants to work with such rules, he should be allowed to. So if this is something the bot-people can and want to set up; I'm totally fine with it. But the option to have only 1 win/kill should definitely still be there as well imo.

I have the feeling we from tlfiveplus tend to enforce more stuff on our raiders compared to Froob200. Possibly unrightfully so. Considering we simply allow everybody that is froob and in the levelrange, while RK1 seems to care about quality before recruiting somebody, we might have had a couple of people that actually needed to be enforced. On big raids there tends to be a bunch of people I don't even know and that I can't assess how trustworthy they are. Maybe I have issues with trust. Probably it's mostly an issue of people not used to raiding and not being able to assess how they should behave properly. And on big raids - where most of those people are - it get's impossible to guide them/keep an eye on them and keep the rest of the raid going smooth (at least for me). So it's so much easier to enforce such rules so that I don't have to count on people I don't know to behave gentlemanny. Just a little explanation on stuff, not meaning something with it.
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Re: Bot discussion

Post by mortem » Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:48 am

Its 3am and hopefully this is coherent
while RK1 seems to care about quality before recruiting somebody
Over on 1, we were driven almost exclusively by word of mouth. I would be willing to bet that the most vocal people were also the ones that would be otherwise considered a quality player. This, I think, tends to lead to quality, though more seldom, invitations.

Not sure how easy it would be to implement, but a hard coded need/greed raffle could potentially solve some issues. The biggest issue I have with the 1 item/raid or even 1/boss is that there are times when someone genuinely needs more than one item that dropped. If they have already won something, or are raffling for something else on the same corpse, should they be denied the ability to raffle against those people that just want it for social or a collection? Unfortunately an open raffle isn't perfect either. Someone could, potentially, be greedy and raffle on everything regardless of need. Personally, I agree with the "RL's descression" idea in that it toggle-able between the two depending on situation. It would be nice to have the raffle rules pertaining to this displayed on the raffle window/somewhere applicable, so people know what's going on for that particular raid, but that might be a bit extra. I think the rules should naturally be a little relaxed and only tighten as needed. If we can maintain a constant and frequent raid schedule, even once a week, it might be possible to alleviate a few loot rules due to lots of loot being raffled, so everyone gets a chance. I want to believe that once we all get settled, we could easily bounce between raid leaders and roll out one raid on Friday, Saturday and Sunday. We might have enough people to maintain that momentum, and it would have all sorts of benefits.
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Re: Bot discussion

Post by EDTA » Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:19 am

The thing about need before greed is that it's not very simple. There are a couple of reasons people want stuff, while not having the right requirements:
1. Social clothes
2. Monetary profit from selling the item (and this can also be done by people that do have the requirements)
3. Needing it for their alt
4. Not having the right level yet

The first 2 are clearly greed. The third I think should be considered need. Especially taking into account I rather have people bring their fully equipped toon compared to their gimp alt. The fourth is a bit more complex. If two people want an item and one of them can already use it, but the other one can not, I would normally say the need of the first person is bigger. But the second person might be leveling fast and be able to use the item in no time and might have a bigger need for it (e.g. item is useful in pvp and second person is making a pvp-toon while first person only pvp's on rare occasions). So I wouldn't consider level as too big of a factor and wouldn't mind if a person with a few levels short also rolls on an item.
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Re: Bot discussion

Post by Llie » Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:26 am

EDTA wrote:while RK1 seems to care about quality before recruiting somebody
Wow. No idea how I got invited to Froob200 then... I think I'm more like the type of player mortem is talking about. I've been around a long time, had once been moderately active when I got invited to Froob200. I have an army of alts, and though I've been playing for like 5 years, I think I mostly have no clue what I'm doing. I just try to follow the raid leader's instructions... :oops: The other main problem is that most raids have taken place while I'm at work (which isn't really anyone's fault as I'm at work a lot...)
EDTA wrote:The thing about need before greed is that it's not very simple. There are a couple of reasons people want stuff, while not having the right requirements:
1. Social clothes
2. Monetary profit from selling the item (and this can also be done by people that do have the requirements)
3. Needing it for their alt
4. Not having the right level yet
I think we're all in agreement that #1 and #2 is greedy. But we're not saying that greed is disallowed. If nobody needs a particular item, then it can be up for grabs for social or profit. Personally, I would love to get Reactive Vest and Helmet for social for my NT (main), but if someone else is going to try to twink it on, I've refrained from joining the roll once for that reason (though I admit that I've joined the roll once for it as well -- I don't remember if anyone said that time they were actually going to wear it, but I'm so rarely able to raid, I figured I'd give it a shot -- though AO Karma caused me not to win either time).

As for needing it for an alt. That's ok too, but again, so long as nobody who showed up doesn't need it. As for bringing gimpy alts.. If they're on a different account, then bring them and park them nearby. But the need should be the discretion of the raid leader or the raid team at large. If the need is a combination of #3 and #4 ("I need it for an alt that I'm building that isn't the right level yet" versus "I'm here on the toon that can use it right now.") the clear preferred player to give it to is the latter.

The "not having the right level yet" was never a real problem on Froob200. I think it was the fact that we had higher level restrictions on raiders. I don't think I once saw someone roll who didn't have sufficient level. I don't know how the bot is set up, whether the raid leader can choose who participates in a roll or not, but if this was the case, I would guess that both the person who has the right level and the person making the PvP toon could both roll for it. On Froob200, at least, everyone's reputation was familiar even though many of us don't know each other very well, the person who was making the PvP toon is probably familiar to a few people at the raid and nobody would protest that person joining the raid.

As a suggestion: I have a VhaBot raffle/raid plug-in that does the following:

1) Everyone joining a raid "signs up".

2) After a kill the raid leader(s) adds loot to be rolled for.

3) Everyone interested in rolling for one of the aforementioned items can click on a "I want to participate in this roll" link if they want a chance to win it, but this doesn't automatically put them in the list, it puts them into a candidate pool

4) Raid leader(s) get a clicky window with everyone who wanted to roll and there's a "approve"/"reject" link next to each name. The raid leader(s) gets to assemble the final list of people who get to roll

5) Raid leader initiates a roll, and the bot returns the results

All of our various suggestions puts a vast amount of power into the hands of the raid leader(s). In the past, I've felt that every raid that I've been to on Froob200 has been fair (even though I've personally never won any loot -- though that's mostly a function of not attending many raids).

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Re: Bot discussion

Post by Lusto » Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:58 am

I think you guys didn't quite understand what kind of people Saav and I tried to gather. We went for the quiet team players who shut up, stand still and get the job done ;-). Noisy power player never got to hear my "Hi, are you a froob by any chance" pickup lines.

Froob200 grew slowly and we could keep it friendly and casual. We had issues whenever the bot started to gather new members faster - then we might even block new members from joining for a while (it did happen at least once!). TL5+ grew much faster, and same can be said about second generation Froob200 as well to some extent.

So more rules may be required. There is no drama there. Rules come and go as bot evolves.
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Re: Bot discussion

Post by Matammyr » Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:55 pm

mortem wrote: Over on 1, we were driven almost exclusively by word of mouth. I would be willing to bet that the most vocal people were also the ones that would be otherwise considered a quality player. This, I think, tends to lead to quality, though more seldom, invitations.
Pretty much how we operated too, but towards the end when our numbers were way down and we weren't as active, no one knew who we were.
mortem wrote: If we can maintain a constant and frequent raid schedule, even once a week, it might be possible to alleviate a few loot rules due to lots of loot being raffled, so everyone gets a chance. I want to believe that once we all get settled, we could easily bounce between raid leaders and roll out one raid on Friday, Saturday and Sunday. We might have enough people to maintain that momentum, and it would have all sorts of benefits.
I forgot who I spoke to about this, it might have been Kas or Carrion, but right now I am very much in favor of a "take it or leave it" schedule. We have set days and times over the course of the week where we do a specific raid, with some "raider's choice" raids sprinkled in, and if people show up, we raid, and if not, no raid (but don't expect there to raid big raids outside of the schedule). If we can get into a a regular schedule instead of just a raid-when-we-can, I think it'll work. People will begin to associate things like "Monday Mercs" or "Inner Sanctum Saturday" and show up, and we can grow from there.

What do you guys think?

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Re: Bot discussion

Post by mortem » Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:29 pm

I think having designated days for stuff, like carrion's "Missions Friday" deal that was happening for a while could lead to more activity as people can plan around it, and that's real important. If wee did a raid every single Saturday, then we'd likely get more people raiding overall since everyone would expect it, rather than popping in to see if anything was going on.
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Re: Bot discussion

Post by squishy » Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:36 pm

I agree with Mort on how the rolling should be done.
In Edta's example 1&2 would roll greed, 3&4 need.
This sytem is not perfect but I'm willing to risk a few items lost to be able to have a decent raid force that can be trusted.
I have seen very few cases in Froob200 that needed anything else and those were delt with when they happend.
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Re: Bot discussion

Post by mortem » Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:13 pm

Llie wrote:Wow. No idea how I got invited to Froob200 then...
On the contrary. You seem to consider yourself more of a casual player, that's totally fine.
Llie wrote: I just try to follow the raid leader's instructions...
This. This right here separates you from what I would consider to be a bad, or unwanted raider. I have seen people be incompetent when it comes to raiding and those are the people I'd rather not raid with. The people that constantly kill drain pets, who train the group, who raffle and loot things they can not even use, or even worse, don't even know what they are (like that enf that won and looted the engi pistol upgrade before he even knew what it was for), or someone who is being an a**, who doesn't want to work as a team, or who steals loot, or who afk's the entire raid and still wants some loot. These are the kinds of things that I'd rather not see members do. If your actively causing the raid to be more difficult because your being an a******, you should be kicked.

I don't see you doing any of these things. I see almost no one doing these things. If you want to just sit back and have fun when you get time, and participate simply by following directions, that's totally fine, great even. Thanks for helping out.
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Re: Bot discussion

Post by pooo » Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:09 pm

I don't know about froob200, but the aim of most tlfiveplus raids (unless indicated otherwise) was the fun. We raided for fun, not for phatz.
I don't think there should be a general rule for distributing loot, it should be up to the RL. However the loot rules should always be announced by the raid leader prior to the raid. This way people are aware and can decide not to join if they find it unfair.
I tend to dislike the whole discussion about greed and need, because this is highly subjective. But again it's up to the RL, if he wants to distribute loot according to his own partial judgement, he's free to do so, and raiders are free not to join.

On the other hand if people need items badly, I suggest we organize other types of raids, that are clearly loot-oriented. I'm not against bringing paid toons if needed, since the aim would not be the fun, but rather help people get their phatz. When talking about paid toons I'm thinking of biodome for example.
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Re: Bot discussion

Post by Matammyr » Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:14 pm

Anything involving paid toons is going to have to happen outside the bot. Members are obviously free to raid with their orgs and friends, paid or not, but that's something we're not going to handle.

For the record, if anyone rolls social on any drop in a raid I'm leading:

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Re: Bot discussion

Post by mortem » Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:42 pm

What if someone likes spanking? Does it still count as punishment?

As for the loot-oriented with paids, I would have no issue with, say, people being recruited from the bot, or people announcing ahead of time that an event with paids involved is happening, but the bot shouldn't be used for hosting the raid or raffling without the permission of the bot owners. That's not what it was made for, so it will have to be a 'by permission' only basis. I could see a bit more leniency if all of the paids were active members of the bot, but it wouldn't be allowed at all for things such as assembling random paids off of lft to go kill some mercs.

We are indeed for a large part a froob raid group, but we are more than that. We are a community. Part of that community is for helping others gear themselves up. Completely banning all paids from the raidbot portion of the group without exception can be justified, but I feel its a bit like banning someone from bringing an alt to an org thing when the alt isn't in the org. The individual alt may not have full access, but they are still a member of the group.
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