Dredd's Guide to Low Level Twinking: Required Reading!

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Post by Woodlands » Sat Jul 05, 2008 9:37 am

Necro bumpage.

/me WTB sticky or bookmark in http://www.aofroobs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=887. Took me quite a while to find this thread again.
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Alt-itis: Nanowoody 49/Omni/NT/NM -> Utterly phail at kiting Level 81 claws. Trader, MP, Soldier, Enfo, Crat, heck..I've got one of each prof!
Woodlands - Level 178 + dual Crispies. Hates the grinding again.
Future wish list: 2x Gelid Blades, MoTR.

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Post by hybridyak » Sun Jul 06, 2008 6:55 pm

Dredd's got skills thats for sure :)

Bwahaha i just watched his Doctorsmooth pvp video and I do believe thats my lvl 1 just about being alpha'd to death at the start :D She's err. not all that hawt. :D
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Post by Ferengi » Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:01 pm

hahnsoo wrote:
BigMx wrote:yeah, I have to give that guy much props for putting together an awesome guide. Was a good read....however, 99% of what he posted I already knew or already use in my own twinking processes. It's great for those that don't know those things already though.
Well, yeah. For those of us who have done a lot of low level twinking (see my CMI level 15 guide), we can practically reverse engineer anything that he does in our head.
Well, I was surprised by his insistance on making the +stamina imps (chest+waist) based on stamina. Every time you take one of those out, the available stamina drops. I usually do those as agility based, and the agility imps (foot+waist) as stamina based. The leg (both agi+stam) ends up as stamina based, which always requires extra work to cover the stamina loss at removal --WTB way to have agi+stam leg imp based on strength :)

Nice to learn that Nodda doesn't require being Clan, but there are better places to farm brontos. Only one warp to bronto/rhinoman area west of ToTW (near city).

As for getting ~ql90 imps in low toons, the numbers show that it's possible right away. Note Tales footnote on http://www.dd.org/~tale/ao/premade-implants.html (website made around the time of SL release). Nice to see some videos to help out the newer players on this subject.

These twinks really come down to time, I notice the directions for getting a GTA were absent...
Adios, thanks for the fish

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Post by Goldberg » Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:45 am

Ferengi wrote:Well, I was surprised by his insistance on making the +stamina imps (chest+waist) based on stamina. Every time you take one of those out, the available stamina drops. I usually do those as agility based, and the agility imps (foot+waist) as stamina based. The leg (both agi+stam) ends up as stamina based, which always requires extra work to cover the stamina loss at removal..
I didnt went throw that section of hes guide but as far as I understand, the idea is to have as high as possible stamina, then you ledder the imps by cycling throw chest/leg/waist stamina based & stamin clusterd! now you can run more cycles then agility based (or at least get higher level stamina imps) thats becuase 1) stamina and agility clash on the waist 2) Im *almost* sure that stamina more buffable, or easy to buff, then agility...
Dredd is no doubt the best twinker I've seen so far, getting ql73 imps on level 1 (froob) is just crazy... :thumbright: Dredd.

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Re: Dredd's Guide to Low Level Twinking: Required Reading!

Post by dredd » Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:06 pm

Hey, I finally found my way to this site- great site from what I've seen! I've already learned a bunch :). Thanks very much for the mention about my guide. I'm glad some people are finding it useful. A few things I can comment on here:
Accomplice wrote: While it is sure good to have high stuff equipped, I had to learn that smart ideas can still outperform just high equipment. I know such a guy, and he amazes me again and again. Last project I saw from him was a lvl31 MA with no evades, and using a rifle/pistol split req weap and another rifle (with burst/FullAuto) as part of his alph o.0 Saw him own a higher lvl styg enf...
Amen to this! I think I know who you're referring to and he's a big reason I've started thinking differently. He's a great "idea-guy". Some of his twinks were the first ones that I couldn't simply overpower with high implants and health. Until fighting his twinks, I didn't really have to pay attention to the actual design of my guys.
GDB2222 wrote: There's a couple of tricks he did not mention (or perhaps just did not make clear) for getting more NCUs:

1) Pair of Electronicum pistols ql 1 => +4 NCUs. Get the buffs and then remove the pistols. The buffs remain even though your NCUs are now 4 lower. Can do the same with some bits of armour. So put on carb, get the buffs, then put on med suit. This maybe ought to be classed as an exploit, but fortunately isn't, as it's so widely used.

2) Fixer perk - NCU Booster = + 10 NCUs (froob friendly)
Excellent Additions :). I never actually used the Electronicums until very recently. I think I vaguely knew that they added ncu, but never bothered with them- basically figured that if I was such a low level that needed the NCU, that I would also need buffs to get the cushions back on- which would then take up the extra NCU. However, I did use them on a lvl 2 soldier project recently and they were very handy indeed! I thought about the Fixer perk, but actually thought it was level locked to 12 at the time I wrote the guide and I was twinking SassyBlade at 10 :).
TigerDragon wrote:His guide is good, but he has several youtube "video" guides as well... and he has extreme bias toward omni in one or two of them. Other than this, his guides in general are all really nice.

His bias comes in the videos that have nothing to do with twinking... his "newbie island" videos.
I'm not quite sure what this is referring to. I looked through my Youtube videos to double check, and I don't have any Noobie Island Videos. I happen to be Omni, but I'm about the farthest thing from "extremely biased". I actually started playing the game as Clan, and told all my friends to go Clan (on RK2). Of course, they all joined up and went Omni on RK1, so I switched to Omni on RK1 and here I am today. A lot of low level buffing armor happens to be Omni-only but I even suggest people start Omni and switch to Clan. I do have a couple tower/pvp videos and I'm generally killing Clans at the towers, but I also killed my share of Omni gankers picking on Noobs at the subway in that same video, so it's pretty even really. I've helped out both Omni and Clan who happen to ask me questions on my blogs etc.. I really don't know where the extreme Omni bias comes from, but I don't think it's me...
hahnsoo wrote: Again, the only advantage given by being clan for low level twinking is the Nodda Grogg quests. *shrugs* It's just a game... Omni/Clan affiliation doesn't matter that much, in the end.
What he said :)
Ferengi wrote: Well, I was surprised by his insistance on making the +stamina imps (chest+waist) based on stamina. Every time you take one of those out, the available stamina drops. I usually do those as agility based, and the agility imps (foot+waist) as stamina based. The leg (both agi+stam) ends up as stamina based, which always requires extra work to cover the stamina loss at removal --WTB way to have agi+stam leg imp based on strength :)

These twinks really come down to time, I notice the directions for getting a GTA were absent...
This is a good point about the stamina vs. agility question, and I've even been re-calculating things since I wrote that guide. What I actually do- may not be in that guide- it would fall under an "advanced" section :). I'll get to that in a minute.

Basically, if we're talking about the chest implant in particular, the one most affected by the loss of the shiny stamina cluster- yes, you lose a bunch of stamina if you take it out but there are more buffs for stamina than there are for agility. If you have a set of polychromatic pillows, we can assume that the buffs from that and the basic ability boosts will be equal and not give any advantage to either agility or stamina. This leaves us with Feline Grace which buffs 25, Behemoth which buffs 27 and IC which buffs 20. So, you have 25 for agility and 47 for Stamina total (22 more for Stamina). So, the loss of the chest implant has to be greater than 22 Stamina for it to be worth switching to agility based (multiplied by the hassle of switching items and getting buffs if you have to go tipping for them :)). In practical terms, any chest implant of QL71 or higher will give 23+ Stamina- (ie: if you take it out- you lose 23 stamina so you have that much less to put in your new chest imp if it is also based on stamina) which makes it technically more beneficial to make the chest dependent on Agility rather than Stamina :D. The catch is, you're not really gaining a whole lot- even if you go up to QL90ish imps, you're only losing 25 Stamina by taking out the chest and making up 22 with the difference in buffs. Three points of stamina loss equals 1.5 implant QLs. Early on in a twink project, I don't bother to get this fussy- that comes later :). (if you don't have Polychromatic pillows, you'll have 4 less Stamina, and it will be more efficient to make your chest implant Agility based above QL55)

The waist is no contest- you will always have more stamina than agility after taking that imp out- since both are there in the faded slot and if you lose stamina by taking it out, you also lose agility.

Now- on to what I REALLY do :). When I wrote Dredd's guide, I was aiming to keep it fairly simple and didn't get into this much at all for the amount of benefit you get. What I do after I've gotten down to my last round of twinking is simply make the chest Strength based (by only putting in a Stamina cluster). By this point I'll be wanting to get stamina a bit higher, and have strength implanted in both arms, and treatment maxed out. For strength you have Prodigious strength and Behemoth, for 67 total- way better than 25 for Agility and 47 for Stamina. So you pull out your chest- yes you're losing the faded strength cluster by doing that, but you're gaining 42 more strength through buffs than you would through agility. Now you put in a super high chest with only Stamina- then continue to rotate out your leg, waist and foot and get them as high as possible. Eventually you'll have to put in a normal chest but for a while you get a huge boost in stamina with that being strength based. When I first discovered this I think I was working on a lvl 10 trader years ago. I had him up to about a QL75 chest and had hit a wall (trying to get GTA on- few points short). By making that strength based, I think it went up to QL91, which allowed him to get a higher waist and leg in. Once the legs/waist were done, I put back the 75 chest which did have strength in it and did the GTA or whatever it was.

Yes- they do indeed come down to time :). too much indeed sometimes.
I have no special trick to getting GTA- kill the Guardian lots ;)

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Re: Dredd's Guide to Low Level Twinking: Required Reading!

Post by Ferengi » Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:09 pm

dredd wrote:I had him up to about a QL75 chest and had hit a wall (trying to get GTA on- few points short). By making that strength based, I think it went up to QL91
AHA! Very nice. So now I know the secret for how your imps are higher than mine...some work to do now. Prod Str is why I wanted the leg str based, never thought of the chest. Otherwise, the whole discussion about stamina buffs are greater than agility buffs is fluff. Without that str chest trick, we end up with the same imps anyway. My way, I have more stamina around to get higher agility in, etc...but the two paths end up at pretty much the same point in the end. The str chest explains why the "best QL imps in ToTW" are won by atrox, and why you use trox so much. I tend to use opi.
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Re: Dredd's Guide to Low Level Twinking: Required Reading!

Post by dredd » Thu Nov 26, 2009 9:15 pm

Always glad to help further the cause of twinking :). I think you may be overestimating the significance of this technique however. This is only useful at fairly low levels and only allows you to bump up the final implants by a couple of levels all around. In the example of my lvl10 Trader who bumped from 75 to a 91 chest- that’s a big jump, but only adds 4 more stamina. That means 2 QLs of implant boost in the leg, waist and foot. Two levels in each of those may or may not even bump up the agility/stamina by one point. Assuming optimistically, you get a bump in each, you will have 3 more agility and 2 more stamina. At this point- you can put in some of your final stamina dependent implants, which is where the biggest boost will come. At best, you’ll end up with 6 more stamina than before- if everything happened to be on exact QLs to be beneficial. 6 Stamina will give you 3 QLs of implant, which may give you 2-3 overall to your attack rating- if we’re talking about the main weapon implants and they happen to be stamina based. When you’re done this step, you’ll be taking out that 91 chest and putting in something with all clusters filled, which will probably be around QL72- 75. Overall, at best you’ll end up with stamina dependent implants about 2-3 levels higher, and agility based implants 1-2 levels higher than without using this method. This is a handy way to get a couple points of a given skill but it’s not the holy grail and the secret to all my twinks :).

As for the highest imps in the temple, Atrox isn’t actually the best breed for highest implants. At level 60, twinking becomes very much treatment-limited as opposed to ability-limited and I’ve never actually used the strength chest trick for anyone of this level. The base abilities on which implants are commonly dependent (Str/Stam/Agi) are plenty high enough for all breeds to end up with treatment being the limiting factor in implant laddering. If you have Chapmans you might get close to having more treatment than abilities, but with normal “treatment-rifle-twinking”, you won’t need to use the stamina-only chest thing. At temple levels (probably starting even lower- around 45-50?), your max implant level will be treatment limited and more profession dependent than breed dependent. The base treatment differences between breeds are almost negligible at lvl 60. Some professions have more buffing equipment and higher base max treatment than others and that will have more impact than a few points more of strength. Come to think of it, Opifex would have more max treatment than Atrox actually :). My lvl 60 toon with the highest implants right now is actually a Froob Nanomage MP, with imps up to QL172. She puts my paid Atroxes to shame :) - although they’re all a few years old and due for overhauls.

There’s probably a chart out there somewhere that does this better, but for fun I ran some numbers to compare breeds and professions vs. Treatment at lvl 60.

Assuming maxed abilities and treatment on a lvl 60 Enforcer:

Atrox: 269
Opifex: 271
Nanomage: 271
Solitus: 270

On the other hand, for a lvl 60 Doctor the base treatment for the breeds are:

Atrox: 300
Opifex: 302
Nanomage: 302
Solitus: 301

This is considering only the base skills on a Froob toon and not considering any breed specific treatment buffing equipment there might be. With this in mind- breed differences are really not a factor in how high implants can go at this level, but profession makes a pretty big difference.

I mainly choose Atrox because there’s minimal sacrifice in nanoskills compared to Nanomage (about 3 pts at lvl 60- not counting NM only items), and I like the extra health they have and I’m too lazy to farm tokens- Atrox gets the most benefit from the Crypt Collar (30 Body Dev :)).

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Re: Dredd's Guide to Low Level Twinking: Required Reading!

Post by hybridyak » Fri Nov 27, 2009 12:58 am

Oh wow Dredd you have posted here and recently. I hope you're still playing AO and twinking something awesome :p

Still kicking around the lvl1 twink ideas myself and working towards a new toon. :)

Also I discovered recently this thread on the official forums of a rather brutally twinked lvl 1... http://forums.anarchy-online.com/showth ... e+baldness" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Really impressive work! But damn trader's and drains... damn them!!! :laughing4:
Serial "Dublivion" Slacker: Forever gimp
Myhealsare "Fullysikmate" Youdig: One of these days he will hit things gud
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Re: Dredd's Guide to Low Level Twinking: Required Reading!

Post by Martialenfo » Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:34 am

dredd wrote:Amen to this! I think I know who you're referring to and he's a big reason I've started thinking differently. He's a great "idea-guy". Some of his twinks were the first ones that I couldn't simply overpower with high implants and health. Until fighting his twinks, I didn't really have to pay attention to the actual design of my guys.
Hey dredd, good to see you're not one of the ones to leave AO completely yet! You're so damn hard to find lol. Back to the point though, I think I know that guy too :wink:.

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Re: Dredd's Guide to Low Level Twinking: Required Reading!

Post by Ferengi » Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:30 pm

dredd wrote:My lvl 60 toon with the highest implants right now is actually a Froob Nanomage MP, with imps up to QL172.
Trox in Temple with 180s.

I think the post was in the fixer forum, some topic similar to 'Highest Imps in ToTW'. It's common to see a Funcom forum statement similar to 'trox get higher', I never tracked that down.

I certainly agree that treatment is a limiting factor in twinking in imps. I found out exactly how much I expect from imp boosts when I started a Shade with the initial plan of putting on Fear Forged Blades at lvl 15 (like all my other SoM weapon twinks) :(
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Re: Dredd's Guide to Low Level Twinking: Required Reading!

Post by dredd » Thu Dec 03, 2009 4:03 pm

Opifex in Temple with 193s.
http://forums.anarchy-online.com/showth ... p?t=513029" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But again- breed isn't a big factor in raw implant levels and I'm sure any of the breeds could achieve similar results. Profession and buffing equipment will play a much bigger role. Treatment is the biggest limiting factor at lvl 60 (not so much at lower levels where it's relatively balanced). If you can manage to push the treatment high enough (with Chapmans for example) you will bump into the ability wall at 60- where agility will likely be the lowest skill- again due to less buffs and buffing equipment. When I made my lvl60 Froob MP, she wouldn't have been able to get her imps that high without Lya's shoulder pads for the agility boost. Again- Opifex will have slightly higher base agility which might get the imps up a couple more levels. If I wanted to make a toon with the absolute highest imps at lvl 60, off the top of my head I would probably go Opifex Doctor or Fixer (on a paid account)- like this guy in the thread above. I'll stick with re-doing my lvl 60 paid toons when I get some time. They happen to be mostly Trox and I plan to get up around 180ish imps on them (maybe 190s on the Fixer), but not because Trox is inherently easier to go higher- just cause I like Trox and have them built already :). I'm open to suggestions but I don't see any gameplay mechanic which would indicate Trox has an inherent benefit to getting higher overall imps in at lvl 60.

Edit- I just looked over the skill charts and ran some numbers in a skill emulator. Looks like Treatment is a green skill for Doctor and Adventurer, with Fixer close behind. Base treatment for all three of those profs at level 60 with abilities and treatment maxed on a Solitus is 300. All the other professions is 270.
(the other breeds will vary by 1, Trox being one lower and Opifex and Nanomage being one higher)
This means that inherently- Doctor, Adventurer and Fixer have roughly a 6-8 implant level advantage at level 60- that was news to me :).

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Re: Dredd's Guide to Low Level Twinking: Required Reading!

Post by dredd » Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:11 pm

Updated the guide- long overdue :). Added sections for Crypt Collar, 6x belt (with video walkthrough), TiM Scope, and some twinking tricks.

http://forums.anarchy-online.com/showth ... p?t=525818" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Dredd's Guide to Low Level Twinking: Required Reading!

Post by frubs » Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:39 pm

Yay for Dredd! Although it takes much of the accomplishment out of twinking (for some), it makes it much easier and much more fun for people who don't want to spend a month on a lowbie twink!

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