A few questions for the Americans here on AOfroobs...

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Post by Tessene » Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:32 am

i think it would be impossible to have an armed revolution. i would like to see a major change of the elected officials.
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Post by majdelta » Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:52 am

If anything the quickest way for a revolution to fail in the US is for it to get violent. those who want change would never go for it 1. and those on the sidelines would be repulsed by it 2. now getting the government to attack the revolutionary's and have CNN film the whole thing. THAT would help the change.
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Post by TeoDragon » Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:51 am

majdelta wrote:If anything the quickest way for a revolution to fail in the US is for it to get violent. those who want change would never go for it 1. and those on the sidelines would be repulsed by it 2. now getting the government to attack the revolutionary's and have CNN film the whole thing. THAT would help the change.
As I said, I DO NOT advocate violence, however the current leadership has made it possible for the Government to make inconvenient people to disappear with the Patriot Act. No formal charges EVER have to be made, no evidence is EVER required to be presented.

I can only assume that non-violent revolutionaries would be considered inconvenient. Therefore any person or group of persons attempting to implement changes MUST be aware that they might be required to resort to violence in self-defense.

Given the overt (and covert) control the Government and Corporate America have shown over the Media any reporting of violence between the current Government and those wishing to CHANGE said Government would likely be portrayed to the public as merely the rounding up of terrorists.
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Post by Tarradax » Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:42 pm

I believe Chairman Mao said something about how true freedom can only be found at the end of a rifle (Or something to that extent), but I digress. Communism is an equally ineffective form of government, especially when dealing with large populations.

About the whole notion of violent vs. non-violent revolutions: "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men". Seems I'm big on quotes lately. History shows that while violent revolutions "Succeed" instantly (In a sense that the effect of it can be seen immediately, think about Franco's Spain if you're looking for a good example) while non-violent revolutions take some time... But the end result is the same one way or another: After all, Hitler's rise to power was via a Democratic election.

The point is not how violent or peaceful your reform is, the point is that it is not even a matter of choice since no large-scale restructuring CAN happen peacefully. It is in the nature of our society that each and every person in power will do every single thing possible to maintain that power, including illegal/immoral/downright evil things - Stalin exiled millions and many more "vanished", Saddam wasn't different, African Revolutions are not even worth getting into since that seems like a bar brawl that just won't end and I can go on and on, but you can get the gist of it from any history book.

In the end, any centralized government becomes a festering cesspool of corruption with the sole purpose of maintaining the luxury level of the ones higher up. Some sooner, some later, but the end result is always the same and will always be the same no matter how you try and spin it. Someone mentioned The Patriotism Act earlier, now that is a lovely example: When you get down to brass tacks, it's a "Law" that allows the government to label people as "Unpatriotic" and then have them put away with exactly ZERO rights. And who will be measuring your Patriotism Level? Yup, the government. Stalin would've been proud.

Anyway, to sum it up nicely: While I do not believe violence to be the answer, it will be inevitable. I can only hope the breaking point in which the people decide to stop being docile will be long after I've left this world. Another civil war in a country that has enough nukes to blow the world 20 times over is not something I want to see in my morning paper.

Ninja Edit: As for my own views... You could say I'm an Anarchist but I honestly hate that label (Largely because people can't wrap their minds around the difference between Anarchy and Chaos, or have seen too many cheap action flicks). I do believe that the only way this species is going to survive in the long run is by finding a way to either insulate the government from basic needs such as funding (Allowing for a government that does not need corporate backing to survive) or by disbanding the massive ruling bodies and reducing population (Allowing more flexibility and easier management on a smaller scale).
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Post by majdelta » Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:33 pm

TeoDragon wrote:
majdelta wrote:If anything the quickest way for a revolution to fail in the US is for it to get violent. those who want change would never go for it 1. and those on the sidelines would be repulsed by it 2. now getting the government to attack the revolutionary's and have CNN film the whole thing. THAT would help the change.
As I said, I DO NOT advocate violence, however the current leadership has made it possible for the Government to make inconvenient people to disappear with the Patriot Act. No formal charges EVER have to be made, no evidence is EVER required to be presented.

I can only assume that non-violent revolutionaries would be considered inconvenient. Therefore any person or group of persons attempting to implement changes MUST be aware that they might be required to resort to violence in self-defense.

Given the overt (and covert) control the Government and Corporate America have shown over the Media any reporting of violence between the current Government and those wishing to CHANGE said Government would likely be portrayed to the public as merely the rounding up of terrorists.
even under a fisa warrant, US citizens have the right of habus coprus. you can not completely disapear. not to mention the media. if you make a big enough wave you will get the attention of CNN or even fox news, and this acts as a buffer from being silently removed.

aslong as your non violent the mainstream media will prolly ignore you intill somthig big happens but the less mainstream will jump on it imedeatly from both sides and probably drag it into the spot light. the government can potray the situation as they want but aslong as there are other non mainstream sorces of infermaion the trouth will get out there and orginiastions such as the ACLU will back you up.

now defending yourself from attack is one thing bur forcibly attacking will only earn you distain. pity, respect, even admeration while letting your opponet demonise them selves through persicution of you and your peole is the way to win the media war. at this point and time thats the strongest tool for revolution.
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Post by majdelta » Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:46 pm

Tarradax wrote:Anyway, to sum it up nicely: While I do not believe violence to be the answer, it will be inevitable. I can only hope the breaking point in which the people decide to stop being docile will be long after I've left this world. Another civil war in a country that has enough nukes to blow the world 20 times over is not something I want to see in my morning paper.
while I hope for a peaceful transition i understand that the "old guard" will not want to give up power with out a fight. if it happens in my lifetime i wonder which side i'll be on...
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Post by Tarradax » Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:43 pm

majdelta wrote:...even under a fisa warrant, US citizens have the right of habus coprus. you can not completely disapear. not to mention the media. if you make a big enough wave you will get the attention of CNN or even fox news, and this acts as a buffer from being silently removed.

aslong as your non violent the mainstream media will prolly ignore you intill somthig big happens but the less mainstream will jump on it imedeatly from both sides and probably drag it into the spot light. the government can potray the situation as they want but aslong as there are other non mainstream sorces of infermaion the trouth will get out there and orginiastions such as the ACLU will back you up....
That's a horrible underestimation of what the government can do. Aside from the easiest way (SS picking someone up in the middle of the night) they can just pull out one of great many possible accusations - Just claim you were an ev0l bombmaker and had WMDs in your house... It's all a matter of presentation. After all, the same excuse (Accompanied by an utter lack of evidence) was used to invade another sovereign country, you think it can't be used to remove a person or persons?

Come to think of it, that's EXACTLY how I'd justify the Patriot Act. Just pick up some folks that nobody really likes (Pick a fringe group, any fringe group) and have a large-scale media extravaganza showing how GOOD and how IMPORTANT the act is. Voila, instant support!
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Post by majdelta » Sat Sep 22, 2007 9:03 pm

Tarradax wrote:
majdelta wrote:...even under a fisa warrant, US citizens have the right of habus coprus. you can not completely disapear. not to mention the media. if you make a big enough wave you will get the attention of CNN or even fox news, and this acts as a buffer from being silently removed.

aslong as your non violent the mainstream media will prolly ignore you intill somthig big happens but the less mainstream will jump on it imedeatly from both sides and probably drag it into the spot light. the government can potray the situation as they want but aslong as there are other non mainstream sorces of infermaion the trouth will get out there and orginiastions such as the ACLU will back you up....
That's a horrible underestimation of what the government can do. Aside from the easiest way (SS picking someone up in the middle of the night) they can just pull out one of great many possible accusations - Just claim you were an ev0l bombmaker and had WMDs in your house... It's all a matter of presentation. After all, the same excuse (Accompanied by an utter lack of evidence) was used to invade another sovereign country, you think it can't be used to remove a person or persons?

Come to think of it, that's EXACTLY how I'd justify the Patriot Act. Just pick up some folks that nobody really likes (Pick a fringe group, any fringe group) and have a large-scale media extravaganza showing how GOOD and how IMPORTANT the act is. Voila, instant support!

granted its all about the media image. thats why YOU need to control the image before the government has a chance to make their move. as long as your visible in the media the government can not easily make you disappear. even if they claim you have bombs people will not take there word on it and demand evidence. they will demand you have a lawyer. and they will demand an open trial. the failure of the revolutionary can often times spark the revolution, as long as he/she can make it a big media fiasco.

any way swaying the masses is the point. just get american idol to denounce the actions of the government and you got a revolution right there. :roll:


Edit: the biggest problem in this day and age is apathy if you cant get the public to care there is no revolution and your just a nutcase.
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Post by TeoDragon » Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:17 pm

majdelta wrote: Edit: the biggest problem in this day and age is apathy if you cant get the public to care there is no revolution and your just a nutcase.
I couldn't possibly agree more.

"You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide you'll still have made a choice..."
(quoted from RUSH - "Free Will")

Voter apathy has lead us to a Government wherein graft and 'back-scratching' are the order of the day.

When I ask people about the Government I am given, virtually without fail, a laundry list of what's wrong with the Government. What it's doing that it shouldn't be doing, or should be doing more. What is ISN'T doing that it should be doing. Everyone seems to have an opinion, however when these same people are asked if they VOTE the vast majority replies in the negative.

Democracy is only "of, by and for the People" when the people are INVOLVED. Voter apathy is a big part, in my opinion. of how we came to have a system where lobbyists no longer persuade Senators and Congressmen with words because they can simply BUY their votes.

Currently this is accepted as 'how the system works' and we elect new people to go and sell themselves to the highest bidder and simply shake our collective heads when nothing changes.

I am a registered voter, I have been since I turned 18. I have missed voting in exactly ONE local election since then.

Two times George W. Bush LOST the popular vote and his public approval rating is LOWER than NIXON'S was during the Watergate scandal that led to his resignation (during his Impeachment proceedings if I recall correctly), but he's in office for another 16 months no matter if I like it or not. I certainly HOPE the next President is better, but there's no guarantee that he or she won't be even worse.

The system is broken, it needs to be fixed.

It would seem, however, that the 'average American' would rather complain about it and watch overpaid athletes on TV and drink beer and eat junk food than actually DO anything about it.

I fear that when the Revolution DOES come (ad I feel it's only a matter of time until it does) it will be a bloodbath the likes of which have never been seen. There will likely be death tolls in the tens if not hundreds of millions.

And 2 years later it will be the TOP SELLING HD DVD OF ALL TIME!
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Post by Tarradax » Mon Sep 24, 2007 9:54 am

TeoDragon wrote:And 2 years later it will be the TOP SELLING HD DVD OF ALL TIME!
Sums it up nicely, hehe.

Thing is, if you ask Average Joe why he doesn't vote, he'll probably tell you something along the lines of "Why bother" - People have grown used to the government having the final say in whatever the issue is, so voting is no longer perceived as an important part of change. This creates an interesting paradox: You need people at the voting booths to make a non-violent change, but you need a change to have people at the voting booths... Personally I'm out of ideas on how to get people to vote (Or care) because I can honestly say that I don't either, and like most people, I'd rather get enough cash stockpiled so that I can just move to a country that has none of these problems.

Edit: I think Scott Adams reads these forums... Here's why.
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Post by Pnunu » Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:39 am

Tarradax wrote:so that I can just move to a country that has none of these problems.
What country is that?
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Post by Unnh » Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:45 am

I was going to try to stay out of this but...
I think a democratic republic works fine as a system as long as the entire population is actively, intelligently involved. Naive, I know.
I am a fan of Robert Heinlein. For some reason I think the system of government he writes about in the beginning of "Starship Troopers" rings true to me. It is a system in which those that want to vote or take part in the government have to serve a term of service to the govt. Those who don't want to vote don't serve, but they cannot influence the govt in any way and cannot hold office. This way only those who cared enough to make a sacrifice can influence the government and those who can influence the government have made a sacrifice and earned the responsibility.

Just my two cents.[/quote]

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Post by itninja » Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:12 am

I'd like to believe that the Democratic form of government works, but ONLY if this "government of the people, by the people" have people who care enough about the future of their nation to get involved and vote. The excuse that one vote does not matter because of whatever ridiculous reason you can come up with is growing old and tired.

To think that so many men gave their lives to create and protect such a robust freedom and have so many people take the right for granted is the main reason I do not like getting into political discussions. Everyone seems to be an expert thanks to what the media tells them, regardless if they know the issues or if they have even voted.

The voter turn out in our local election was unbelievable. I can't remember the exact #s, but it was somewhere around 20% of registered voters showed up to vote for the local elections. This means that 80% of the registered voters didn't even feel the need to show up, and who knows how many unregistered voters there are out there who have the opportunity but don't decide to take it. I find it humorous though that 100% of these people have an opinion to share, but don't have the time to stop at voting booth and cast a ballot.

I guess what I'm getting at is that to fix the system of government, we first must fix ourselves and get involved.

EDIT: Read all the posts; Teo I suppose I'm in line with you on this one :-D
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Post by Tarradax » Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:22 pm

Pnunu wrote:
Tarradax wrote:so that I can just move to a country that has none of these problems.
What country is that?
Bugger me if I know, but that's the trend lately. Travel is easy and affordable, so following the "Grass is always greener" rule people just move around hoping to find that idyllic place... I've been in the same country for over 16 years now and only left for vacations, so that's a measure of how much faith I have in the neighbor and their grass.
itninja wrote:...The voter turn out in our local election was unbelievable. I can't remember the exact #s, but it was somewhere around 20% of registered voters showed up to vote for the local elections. This means that 80% of the registered voters didn't even feel the need to show up, and who knows how many unregistered voters there are out there who have the opportunity but don't decide to take it. I find it humorous though that 100% of these people have an opinion to share, but don't have the time to stop at voting booth and cast a ballot...
Once again, a world-wide trend. The numbers vary but one of the major issues facing democracies around the world is that people just don't want to play anymore.
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Post by Nicodar » Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:31 pm

Tarradax wrote:
Pnunu wrote:
Tarradax wrote:so that I can just move to a country that has none of these problems.
What country is that?
Bugger me if I know, but that's the trend lately. Travel is easy and affordable, so following the "Grass is always greener" rule people just move around hoping to find that idyllic place... I've been in the same country for over 16 years now and only left for vacations, so that's a measure of how much faith I have in the neighbor and their grass.
I say buy a small tropical island and start your own country. That way you'll have no illusions about the people running things.

*you is used in a general sense and not specifically Tarra :P
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