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Yulai
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Post by Yulai » Sat Aug 18, 2007 5:12 am

Bednarz3 wrote:I was talk with lot of MAs i ws have 3 MA chars this opne is highest lowest is 163.
I ws all time think how get better dmg and i was wana try it on my self and i have now 2 attacks with wep and 3rd with fists! That is realy good when i crit 2.2 with wep and 3.1 fist but my dmg is not best i ahve friend MA Hurjajrope trox he use sticks to he hit 2.4 wep 3.4 fist (i dont remember good)
I have friend Supreme0 <MA trox (Expansions) And that guy rocks he have so good dmg on high llv you have a lot of ip and you can just try it on your self MA fists is middle dmg i think its not best (now i think about try HAzaringe claws) Good luck (Sry for bad englisch i hope you will understand)
And when i was dont have 175llv i was take aggro form MA 195llv froob easy Shanadvy was see it ;) And i still think that weapon is good.
I dont know what exactly you are trying to say here, but...
First of all, if you use only your fists you´ll attack 26 Times / Minute if you are 1/1. Now if you use a weapon that can be dualed with you "ma item" (just like Torturing Tool, Parry Sticks, any kind of Claw or with expansions BoBs or Shen Sticks) you´ll attack 40 Times / Minute on 1/1. Problem is, thats the max - so if you dual wield Parry Sticks like you, you dont get more attacks or anything out of that. And as the ao-game engine prefers Weapons over ma you will actually loose dmg instead of getting more.
So if you want to use a weapons to get more dmg, use only one and you fists. Then you´ll do theoretically more damage-over-time. I said theoretically because of a few other problems: unless you have expanions and can get a Bob/Shen Stick there are none weapons with pure ma-attack skill; Parry Stick Torturing Tool...all of them have a splitted ar of 1hb/MA. That means you´ll have less AR than with you fists and that results in many more "missed hits" especially against highlevel mobs. So overall you´ll probably do less dmg again as if you were using only fists.
I dont say Parry Stick / TT etc are totally useless. They are useful in some situations - you can, for example, triple implant heal delta / body deff, use evade setup + 2 Parry Sticks and you´ll end up with 1500+ Evade Clsc; thats enough to afk-kill most of the 200+ rk dynas - funny, aint it?
But for a pure dmg-releated setup and a lets call it "everyday life" setup its fists 4tw in my opinion.

sayonora
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Post by sayonora » Sat Aug 18, 2007 7:55 am

Mikro wrote:My totw MA :)
http://auno.org/ao/equip.php?saveid=65379 (also have low ql flurry of blows but I cant find it in equipment configuratur >.<)

pics coming soon :)

ps: yeah I know I could make it better :wink:

I was just wondering, how did u get 801 psychic at lvl 60 O.o, and off wich mob did u find that 200 O.o
nice setup for the rest tho!
what fists do you use?

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Post by hahnsoo » Sat Aug 18, 2007 11:12 am

Yulai wrote:First of all, if you use only your fists you´ll attack 26 Times / Minute if you are 1/1. Now if you use a weapon that can be dualed with you "ma item" (just like Torturing Tool, Parry Sticks, any kind of Claw or with expansions BoBs or Shen Sticks) you´ll attack 40 Times / Minute on 1/1. Problem is, thats the max - so if you dual wield Parry Sticks like you, you dont get more attacks or anything out of that. And as the ao-game engine prefers Weapons over ma you will actually loose dmg instead of getting more.
This is assuming that you are attacking at 1/1. The maximum number of attacks per minute is still 40, but if you are wielding parry sticks, you are not likely to be attacking at 1/1 due to being at a defensive position and the naturally slow speed of the Parry Sticks. Thus, if you use Parry Sticks, you'll probably want to dual wield them to increase the number of attacks you get per cycle/minute.
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Mikro
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Post by Mikro » Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:07 am

@sayonara

doh after looking in your post and my equip for 30 min I finaly found out that capsule ql is wrong >.< (its low lvl monster so you cant get higher ql anyway)

Im using energized fists (mantis armor have a nice +dmg bonus) :)

Yulai
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Post by Yulai » Sun Aug 19, 2007 1:30 pm

hahnsoo wrote:
Yulai wrote:First of all, if you use only your fists you´ll attack 26 Times / Minute if you are 1/1. Now if you use a weapon that can be dualed with you "ma item" (just like Torturing Tool, Parry Sticks, any kind of Claw or with expansions BoBs or Shen Sticks) you´ll attack 40 Times / Minute on 1/1. Problem is, thats the max - so if you dual wield Parry Sticks like you, you dont get more attacks or anything out of that. And as the ao-game engine prefers Weapons over ma you will actually loose dmg instead of getting more.
This is assuming that you are attacking at 1/1. The maximum number of attacks per minute is still 40, but if you are wielding parry sticks, you are not likely to be attacking at 1/1 due to being at a defensive position and the naturally slow speed of the Parry Sticks. Thus, if you use Parry Sticks, you'll probably want to dual wield them to increase the number of attacks you get per cycle/minute.
Yeah. I probably havent explained it very well.

Code: Select all

You want the weapon you are using to match the speed of your fists so that you alternate (fist,claw,fist,claw,etc.) when attacking. When you have a 1s/1s speed with your fists, you can punch 26 times in 1 minute. If you add an MA weap to that which also has a 1s/1s speed, you now attack 40 times per minute - 20 fist attacks and 20 weapon attacks. Now almost always your fist attacks will be more damaging. While you do lose 6 fists attacks when wielding an MA weap this way, you gain 20 attacks with your weapon! If you have a good weapon for your level, you will certainly do more damage total than if you were to go with just fists and MA special attacks.

If you would like to dual wield MA weaps, you are in fact triple wielding, for you will still be hitting with your fists. However even with 3 attack sources the maximum number of attacks per minute remains 40. So if all 3 of your attacks are at max speed (1s/1s) you will roughly have 13 fist atks, 13 weap1 atks, and 13 weap2 atks per minute. So you lose about 7 more fist attacks by triple wielding.

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Post by Bednarz3 » Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:34 am

Guys i was use Sticks for fun they not bad i was just change my Eqip and i use Fists again i will give here my eqip edited but right now iam in friend office ^^ and dont have time to change it now. Sticks ahve one big - Ar is so low i was have AR 920 With fists i have now 1042 but (Still dont using FFOK) With Sticks only problem is fight with 215llv+ mobs and when you use Sticks on 75% they not so slow :)

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Post by Derishen » Sun Aug 26, 2007 6:06 pm

Yulai, I don't know where you got your information, but it is incorrect.

Duel-wielding with fists works like this:

Fists only: Theoretical 30 attacks/min (1s attack, 1s recharge), but in reality it is only 26 or so due to server sync.

Fists + 1 weap: Again, theoretically 40 attacks/min (1s attack fists, 1s attack weap, 1s recharge). Again, it is reduced to between 34-36 based on server sync.

Fists + 2 weaps: Theoretically 45 attacks/min (1s attack fists, 1s attack weap1, 1s attack weap2, 1s recharge). Server sync reduced it to between 38-40.

So, you do actually gain from triple-wielding, although usually only on high AC mobs like those in SL.

Source for most of this info is the old Chronita's MA Compendium, which isn't online anymore, but was an absolute wealth of MA info.

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Post by hahnsoo » Sun Aug 26, 2007 6:15 pm

Derishen wrote:Source for most of this info is the old Chronita's MA Compendium, which isn't online anymore, but was an absolute wealth of MA info.
Gone but not forgotten:
http://web.archive.org/web/200704021335 ... /index.htm
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Post by Nedylene » Sun Aug 26, 2007 9:34 pm

...and back to topic...
RK1 - Atlantean
Lise "Gimpeline" Evergreen - Omni - Level 220/30/70 Martial artist Omni-Mining
Rudolph "Nissemann" Juhl - Omni - Level 220/30/70 Engineer Omni-Mining
Mary "Gimpa" Wormwood R.U.R
Josephine "Gimpyposer" Dredd Omni-Pol
Sweetrox Leveling Froob Enfo. Hoping to get him to 200 soon (LVL 183 and counting)
Proud member of LPA

Yulai
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Post by Yulai » Mon Aug 27, 2007 6:39 am

Derishen wrote:Yulai, I don't know where you got your information, but it is incorrect.

Duel-wielding with fists works like this:

Fists only: Theoretical 30 attacks/min (1s attack, 1s recharge), but in reality it is only 26 or so due to server sync.

Fists + 1 weap: Again, theoretically 40 attacks/min (1s attack fists, 1s attack weap, 1s recharge). Again, it is reduced to between 34-36 based on server sync.

Fists + 2 weaps: Theoretically 45 attacks/min (1s attack fists, 1s attack weap1, 1s attack weap2, 1s recharge). Server sync reduced it to between 38-40.
Thats what ive said...
Derishen wrote:So, you do actually gain from triple-wielding, although usually only on high AC mobs like those in SL.
Thats true for sl00bs (as you have decent ma weapons) but not for fr00bs.
As a froob, you will gain overall additional dmg-over time if you use ma + 1 weapon as long as this weapon will do more damage than the fist hits you have lost from using the weapon would have done.
But infact, if you triple wield something you´ll again loose 7 fist attacks / minute and that will reduce your damage dramatically.
As a froob, you have like 1300 ar (with defensive setup), 30% crit increase (as long as you dont gimp your inits and use Gurgling River Sprite instead of an as-scope) and like +200 add dmg.
Estimated Damage Range: 586-1802 (3625)
150ish TT (the only viable froob ma weapong for that matter, oh...and right hand only...)
Estimated Damage Range: 544-544 (2604)
Somewhat like this (apart from the fact that your ar will suffer due to the splitted ar = more missed hits).
So, what does this show?
Your fist hits will always do a lot more dmg - dual wielding = additonal dmg
triple wielding = overall less dmg.
It is not like as for sloobs where you have BoBs / Shen Sticks and the better min dmg and so on makes them a good alternative for triple wielding when fighting things with huge ACs.

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Post by hahnsoo » Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:36 pm

Yulai wrote:As a froob, you have like 1300 ar (with defensive setup), 30% crit increase (as long as you dont gimp your inits and use Gurgling River Sprite instead of an as-scope) and like +200 add dmg.
Pardon me, but you can probably count the number of froob MAs who have this setup or better on your fingers. This is NOT the average froob MA. You can't do comparisons based on the pinnacle of froobiness, because by the time you reach it, all the rules have changed.
So, what does this show?
Your fist hits will always do a lot more dmg - dual wielding = additonal dmg
triple wielding = overall less dmg.
It is not like as for sloobs where you have BoBs / Shen Sticks and the better min dmg and so on makes them a good alternative for triple wielding when fighting things with huge ACs.
At TL1 to TL3, you can actually do more damage with MA weapons than your fists. It isn't until TL4 when the MA fist weapon greatly starts to outpace wielded weapons (heck, TL2-TL3 fist weapons are just so darn pitiful, it makes me cringe to play an MA sometimes, but I'm spoiled by ITDs). It also greatly depends on how much damage add that you have, and which MA weapons you are using.
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Yulai
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Post by Yulai » Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:39 pm

hahnsoo wrote:
Yulai wrote:As a froob, you have like 1300 ar (with defensive setup), 30% crit increase (as long as you dont gimp your inits and use Gurgling River Sprite instead of an as-scope) and like +200 add dmg.
Pardon me, but you can probably count the number of froob MAs who have this setup or better on your fingers. This is NOT the average froob MA. You can't do comparisons based on the pinnacle of froobiness, because by the time you reach it, all the rules have changed.
Pardon me, but ive just picked up a theoretical, decent tl6 froob ma setup and said a few numbers. If you think they are incorrect or that they are too hard to get to call them average: change them but you´ll end up with the same (dual wielding = additonal dmg / triple wielding = overall less dmg).
Again, this things, all the calculations are theoretical stuff. For real results just turn your dmg-dumper on.
Its right that the situation is a complete other for lower title levels (tl1-4 or somethat) but then again you´ll have to look if you have enough ip and decide if you want to put ips into weapon skills (1hb/ piercing or whatever + multi melee at lower tls? ouch...).
Nedylene wrote:...and back to topic...
Yeah. We wanna see your mas :) .

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Post by Kotty » Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:14 pm

I'd post mine..but it's top secret :P
@Kotty, Farminator, Drush, Guzzler, Gutrot, Dociii, Hormon, Hormione

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Post by Derishen » Tue Aug 28, 2007 8:07 am

Yulai wrote:Thats what ive said...
Not to split hairs, but thats *not* what you said.
Yulai wrote:First of all, if you use only your fists you´ll attack 26 Times / Minute if you are 1/1. Now if you use a weapon that can be dualed with you "ma item" (just like Torturing Tool, Parry Sticks, any kind of Claw or with expansions BoBs or Shen Sticks) you´ll attack 40 Times / Minute on 1/1. Problem is, thats the max - so if you dual wield Parry Sticks like you, you dont get more attacks or anything out of that.
I wasn't arguing the viability of triple-wielding, particularly for froobs, but I just wanted to point out that you do in fact get more attacks triple-wielding than duel-wielding.

On-topic:

I'll post a picture of my MA when I get back to the house. Work ftl

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Post by Bednarz3 » Sun Sep 30, 2007 2:26 am


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